The author of this article is either misinformed or intentionally distorting facts for some type of hidden agenda

[Love_Mash]

I'm sorry. I didn't want to start a new thread. I merely attempted to post a reply to this thread below:

http://banglacricket.com/alochona/sh...ad.php?t=18122

The thread above was started by RUBAYED to discuss the merits of the following article that appeared on the rediffDOTcom web site.

************************/news/2006/dec/05msg.htm

The following is my response to the issues that the article raised:

I’m afraid it isn't quite easy to understand the supposedly strained relationship between India and Bangladesh without taking into account the geo-political relationship between Bangladesh and our next door superpower neighbor. Throughout the history of human civilization, strong military powers have always hated and tried to dismantle another strong military presence alongside their borders. India is no exception in this regard and, historically, never tried to mask their contempt for our military build-up since the assassination of Sheikh Mujib. India fought two major wars with Pakistan and was only too happy to play a key role in the dismantling of Pakistan. India was never too happy to see their key ally (Mujib) to suffer the consequences and since then has played the role of an extremely disgruntled antagonist.

The Indian BSF fight with our border security forces (BDR) almost everyday. Those of us that have never really lived close to the border areas have no idea how unstable and fragile and tenuous life close to the border regions can be. The BSF outnumber the BDR by ten to one in most border security posts and they have chosen to engage our border security forces every single day.. The BSF routinely provokes the BDR and instigates indiscriminate shootings. This daily harassment is routine for our BDR brothers. A lot of times the BSF kills innocent farmers and livestock. Other times, they kill members of the BDR. Much of this remains unreported most of the time in our daily news. It’s just part of the daily reality for our brothers in BDR. Not a day goes by when at least a few members of BDR doesn't bleed for the country.

The members of BDR are fierce in battle and they watch over our borders with utmost dedication and they lay down their lives in the line of duty every single day. The Indian government has always hated the BDR and treated them with utter contempt. In the past, The Awami League, including its founder, made numerous efforts to weaken or even abolish the BDR. It doesn't require much of imagination to connect the dots and figure out who is pulling the strings from behind the scenes and playing our politicians like puppets. If India didn’t have to worry about Pakistan and Pakistan’s potential interference in case of India’s territorial ambitions in its eastern border, India would have annexed Bangladesh years ago and we would have ceased to exist as a free sovereign nation from the face of the world map.

India never tried to be the friendly neighbor. Various people at various branches of the Indian government and some of their major newspapers have openly questioned the justification and need for Bangladesh to have its own military (and countless prominent India-backed and India-supported entities in Bangladesh have also expressed the same sentiment repeatedly over the years). Instead of playing the role of a gracious superpower and encourage trade and commerce between the two nations they decided to be a constant sore in our butts and pester us in every conceivable way.

India repeatedly defied the International laws and built numerous dams in the upstream of some of our most prominent rivers without the slightest regard for the desertification and other deadly consequences on vast areas of its next door neighbor. Instead of trying to create a safe and commerce-friendly border between our two nations the BSF routinely provokes our BDR and actively cultivates a hostile and aggressive culture. The trade relationships between our two nations is also totally upside down. Honestly, the exchange of goods between our two nations shouldn't be categorized as "trades" since the exchanges couldn't be more exploitive. As a matter of fact, there's hardly any market for Bangldeshi products in India; however, Bangladesh serves as a rich market for every conceivable Indian manufactured product.

Lastly, the Indian government has allowed the contructions of countless "Phencidyle" and other addictive drug manufacturing companies along our borders knowing fully well the devastating effects of those drugs and their potential to totally destroy the minds of our youth. The BSF (with the help of a few corrupt BDR members on our side) works as the agent for these companies to facilitate the movement and distrubution of these drugs throughout our country. From the vantage point of the Indian government nothing wold be more desireable than converting our country into a land of mindless and spiritless zombie-like creatures. Folks, I'm not an India-basher and I've nothing against the people of that country. We are human beings before we are Hundus and muslims and christians and buddhists. In fact we are the same people that share a rich history that goes back thousands of years. But the irrefutable facts that I just described belies a more-than-meets-the-eye sinister side of long term Indian foreign policy that hardly envisions a mutually beneficial relationship with its next door neighbor and that doesn't have much room for an independent prosperous Bangladesh with a flourishing economy.

I could go on and on and discuss India's massive energy needs while it is racing to become a first world nation. But I would rather not bore you guys to death and spare you the details about how keeping a destabilized Bangladesh and preventing it from exploiting its oil and gas resources is an important agenda in India's Bangladesh policy.

All this new talk about Bangladeshis not being grateful to India is just another cleverly designed distraction to foment further internal dissent. Let's not fall prey to such tactics and treat this discussion with utter disregard since that's exactly what it deserves.

[Rabz]

Ah, bringing back the dead !!

[ammark]

Moderator Message:

We do not look kindly to digging up old threads from the past. If you have to refer to it, give a link to the old thread for reference. In this case I'm giving the link to the old thread here.

Secondly, please cite the source and author of this article with a link if possible. Otherwise we shall remove it within 24 hours.

[Neel Here]

your article loses credibility in the first paragraph.

'India is a superpower'.

[One World]

Originally Posted by Neel Here
your article loses credibility in the first paragraph.

'India is a superpower'.

2 things, it was not his article. And, why not!? India has nukes.

[Peace]

There is only one superpower at present- the USA. The others likes of China, Russia, India are “Great Powers”. India has a potential of achieving superpower status within the 21st century.

Not all the countries with nukes, likes of Pakistan, North Korea are great powers or superpowers.

[One World]

Originally Posted by Peace
India has a potential of achieving superpower status within the 21st century.

Really, that is a potential bad news for tiny neighbors like us.

[Peace]

In my understanding, most of the allegations made against India in this article are true, more or less.
The article raises further concerns about the facts alleged, and the government should take some serious steps to eliminate/ reduce the hostility between both countries.

If the government is acting like a puppet and doing nothing for the interest of the country to address these issues, then the opposition party(s) has responsibility to introduce debate in the parliament, and to seek redress through international forum such as United Nations.

The ordinary people and independant organisations can also take steps to make petitions to seek redress and serve to national and international authorities.

[One World]

Well there are too many loose ends in the article. Once you look at it out of the box with a cosmopolitan view you would notice that how 'might is right' and 'survival of the fittest' prevail in all those scenarios cited. For example: drug curtails are not necessarily from India, internally we failed as a nation to keep up with proper control of law and order which gives rise to so many trafficking groups that the local administrations around the vast border in general fail to operate in an effective way. Also we can talk about the much debated sea-boundary issue. BD yet to take a proper measure and necessary voice in UN and other international organizations responsible when less provocative Myanmar can become a threat for us.

It just happens, think as an Indian and you will be having a different perspective.

About making effort through civil society as well as political wings, I will add to that the noise that should be coming from the concerning expatriates who also are worried in the same line as you and the writer.

[Love_Mash]

Skepticism at India's "superpower" label, I'm afraid is an expression of one's failure to keep up-to-date with the military might of India. Aside from the five traditional superpowers, India, Turkey, and Israel are the only three countries that have the resources to marshal a military response that can overwhelm the defenses of any nation. These three are the world's unofficial superpowers.

Quite hesitatantly (fearing strong responses from those that believe otherwise), I like to add that Pakistan has always been and still is a mere pawn in the game. The military strategists in Pentagon has quite an elaborate scheme of checks and balances that couldn't allow India to acquire nuclear weapons and further consolidate India's hegemony over a vast part of Asia. Recent leaking of classified documents reveal that Pentagon made it a top priority to arm Pakistan with nuclear weapons to ensure that the balance of power in that region doesn't tilt overwhelmingly in India's favor. All those media caricature and sensational news about America getting caught off-guard were just smoke and mirrors to keep the mostly uninformed public dazed and confused.

It's imperative that we understand the new emerging world order so we don't delude ourselves and get carried away with the old and popular notion of World politics. China, Brazil, and india are in the fight of their lives to become the most dominant economies of the 21st century. In Asia, the ring belongs to China and India that share a common border. In all previous Pak vs India conflicts, China played an integral part dictating the outcomes. Today, both India and China need all the raw materials that they can put their hands on to satisfy the insatiable expansion of their economies. However, neither is willing to flex their military muscles and engage with each other (or anybody else) in actual battles for dominance. Instead they choose pawn nations (like Pakistan and N. Korea) as bargaining chips and to play out their proxy battles.

Anyway, I'm probably getting carried away here and unnecessarily delving too much into world politics. I can't just over-emphasize the fact that India departed from the pace of sub-continent economic evolution quite a while ago. Today, the chasm that exists between India and other sub-continent (and other Asian countries) nations can only be measured in light years. We'll only slow ourselves down and fall short of acquiring proper perspectives if we willfully choose to remain oblivious to reality.

[Neel Here]

Originally Posted by One World
2 things, it was not his article. And, why not!? India has nukes.

one nuke does not a superpower make.

@love_mash, there is only one superpower at the moment, before the break-up of SU there were two. the others are as peace says, great powers. superpowerdom is a combination of military, economic, technological powers and diplomatic weight. but I do appreciate your lucid understanding of world politics at the moment. except
"Instead they choose pawn nations (like Pakistan and N. Korea) as bargaining chips and to play out their proxy battles."
only china does, not India. as you will see, India shows strong reluctance in the great game, so to speak, unlike say china, which does not take a step without thinking about world domination.

while India is a potential superpower, India is also a very inward looking power, happy to maintain what it has with little interest in what happens outside, unlike say china or US. this has been periodically criticized by security analysts most from US who would prefer, for their own sake a more pro-active role from India.

the only exceptions to this attitude have been,
1971, because of a variety of reasons including that the economy of west bengal was crumbling at the onslaught of refugees from then east pakistan.

1987, peace-keeping force in sri lanka to control LTTE, what was essentially our mess gone out of hand and therefore our responsibility. now do keep in mind that formation of LTTE and other tamil groups was the step that prevented a genocide against tamils, before their formation there were widespread pogroms against sri lankan tamils that would probably have annihilated the population.

1988, operation cactus, despatching a military force to Maldives at the request of President Qayoom to protect him and his government from a coup. this was completed within a few hours and the force left in a few days.

the point I want to stress here is that in all three cases, if India was an expansionist power, as many hard right BD policians and columnists suggest, it would not have been particularly difficult to annex these countries or at least install a puppet government.
yet there was never any attempt to do so. all India expected was friendly governments in its neighbours which has in most cases not been the case.

don't be offended, but there is a typical small country mentality in some of the anti-India commentaries, the only solution for that is for India to disappear. like the mexicans used to say, 'so near to america, yet so far from god'. this is not specific to India, in regions where politics hasn't matured beyond rhetoric, all major powers face this issue, whether it is justified or not.

more later.

[One World]

Now it sounds offensive. West Bengal should join us so we can become greater and stronger.

I was actually following the article posted by Love_Mash, now I just read the post by Rubayee in the actual thread. The whole concept of help is overrated. The war ended in 9 months, I would say we should not have taken the help, that way we would have earned it the hard way. There was no possibility for West as continuously internally turmoiled and politically struggled, could hold on BD too long. It might have taken us much longer but eventually we would have been liberated. So the answer to this there was no mistake on their part, it was our mistake to seek military help when we could easily survive and liberate the nation without that. We had better and stronger friends. It could result in a Vietnam who knows but still it could at least shut those kind of petty obnoxious dubiousness.

[Neel Here]

why does it sound offensive ? even if it is, it is true. many Indians used to have similar attitude towards US, many still do. it's quite usual for how people react.
as for WB joining BD, why shouldn't BD join India and become part of a future superpower ?

it's very arguable whether BD got have achieved independence on its own. you need a handle on military affairs to understand that the situation was not same as vietnam, which was supported full fledgedly by a superpower and a regional power. vietcong also controlled half the country from where it could operate an air force and offer permanent bases for its army. MB had no such advantage if India did not support it. as it is many MB fighters were trained by India. without external help there was little chance for MB to bring independence on its own, I say that with all respect for their bravery and valour. to understand how it would have been, look at the balochis. they have been fighting for independence since 1947 without making any headway. whenever the balochi forces become strong, pak army comes and bombs the residences of their leaders. no one in the international community gives a damn.
had MB been fighting alone PA would have simply killed enough to stop them.

We had better and stronger friends.

like whom ? the west and china was strongly in support of pakistan. as were the muslim countries. US even sent the 7th fleet of the US navy headed by the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise to get India to back down from interfering in pak army's genocide.

[One World]

As I have said before you carry the typical Dada attitude which is not so unusual as not only me but most members would understand. That is why saying something offensive and stating it as a truth is not impossible for you.

You are trying to compare us with Baluchis! When did India joined the real war, for two weeks when it was all falling apart for the country which is miles away and does not share a border with it's eastern half. No. It was never been easy for them. The technique applied against them was nowhere compared to other scenarios. There may be similarities in bits and pieces but you cannot really match a war situation with another.

We can go on with this debate and can never reach a conclusion because we share a different perspective. You were not there. Castro or Gaddafi did not need what you are saying. Again this comparison is as vague as yours.


Back to the original topic now. While questioning the India's action was right or wrong, I think as the trial of the war-criminals are underway with supports from the intellectuals from the very country which masterminded the incident, a bit of self-analysis is overdue for BD as a nation. As a nation have we been enough helpful to our neighbors, or any of the other members of the SAARC? What did we do to take the initiative to help make the region prosperous? As Neel Here mentions the US fleet, have we ever been ready to show our gratification to the US for not getting indulge into the war? Was not it been a good decision from them which should get a grateful appraisal?

We as a nation always love to criticise others and never really want to amend our own weaknesses and pay heed to our internal disabilities which keeping the whole country cripple and backward.

Also want to metion some activities of the current government who is taking stringent measures against the Jongis and also separatist fractions around the country which actually struggling to get seggregated some of the eastern regions of India. Some harldiners who are opposite to government may talk about the geo-political imbalance that is to rise because of this but they always forget the district with highest natural resource which actually drives the economy of the country also the people originated from their abroad are one of the highest source of forex was also a part of the land they are trying to liberate out. Who can say if they succeed against India they will not try to make it happen against us? At that time they will have their own country, better organized and strength to push us down.

Less importantly based on descent I won't be a Bangladeshi any more.

[Neel Here]

there is nothing 'dada' about it. I say it as I see it and I say the same about many Indians. it might be unpalatable to some but then I'm not very good at sugarcoating.

as to whether MB could have liberated BD by itself, I understand it is an emotional issue and out of respect for your patriotism I'll not comment on it any more. I may not have been there but I know people who were so it's not as if I'm speaking out of vacuum. to those who are interested in forming an unbiased opinion I would suggest reading up in depth the history of insurgency movements that operated without external help against repressive regimes that do not care about bloodshed. bear in mind that most such movements would be obscure since there are not many success stories.
a few examples would be the basmachi revolt in fmr USSR, balochis in pakistan and iran, kurds in turkey and the numerous failed rebellions against colonial powers, including the 1857 one.

btw, what exactly have castro or gaddafi done that ranks at the same level as BD liberation ?

why are you irritated at the comparison with baluchis ? are they any less human than bangalis ?
patriotism is good, hubris is usually counter-productive.

As Neel Here mentions the US fleet, have we ever been ready to show our gratification to the US for not getting indulge into the war? Was not it been a good decision from them which should get a grateful appraisal?

this has to be a joke. US under nixon was the country most responsible for the genocide after pakistan, US protected pakistan from all criticism and sheltered it from a condemn motion in the UN. pakistan got emboldened only because of the staunch support of the US to undertake any method to suppress the uprising.
it wasn't some good decision from US in favour of BD that stopped it from making a vietnam in BD ! the war finished before the 7th fleet could reach the BoB and they were delayed and deterred because the soviet navy, at the insistence of India started tailing the US carrier battle group with their own submarines.
so, if you want one more country BD should be grateful to it should be russia/SU, they risked nuclear war to protect the bangladeshi people.

[One World]

Cannot you prolong things out of context. Have you missed the part when I said my comparisons were not annexed as counter-comparison of yours, just for example, and also cited as vague as yours.

You are missing one important fact from my statement that we did not share a common border with the West. How on earth came up with hubris and my hate to Baluchis from that? This is exactly why I said your Dada attitude as I have stopped feeling bad about it and I think that is why after putting so many provocative posts against BD cricket and BD you are still welcome in this forum. Because by now everybody gets your motive more or less which is, yes these people are good, they play some good cricket, I might as well support them as I share some ancestral and linguistic connection to them but noway they are better than India even if they have better players, thinkers or can beat us!

Never mind, this was our war, and your pokiness proves my earlier argument, we should have never asked for Indian help, support was OK. Should we start judging Nixon's US before asking Mujib's BD to show gratitude, that was exactly my point. With Neel's zealous comments it is clear again that Bangalee whether on the land of Ganges or Padma think alike, incorrigible.

[Neel Here]

please, you know nothing about me and therefore kindly spare me the analysis of my 'motive'.
personal insults against me again has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

btw, I wasn't aware of any BC rules that say that to become a member here one has to acknowledge the superiority of everything bangladeshi. strange comment that.

I'm not missing any point about lack of common border but as I said, I would better not discuss this issue when it has the potential to hurt your feelings, which in spite of your unnecessary barbs, I'm loathe to do.

[One World]

That is why I said never mind but you are constantly bringing up those silly factors like emotion, your comments will hurt me etc. If they should, they already would have. If your posts above already showed enough disrespect to our independence. Such as if India wanted they could capture a neighbor like us on the contrary you mentioned about the tiny mentality - see what are you doing?

Constantly trying to downgrading us is coming from your attitude, which you need to admit first and clarify yourself. Better I stop this unnecessary barb, I am not a psychotherapist.

[Neel Here]

meh, this 'I'll put you on the defensive by claiming you insulted me' attack is so yesterday. you can do better than that. moreover, you shouldn't use your country's name to earn cheap brownie points.

[One World]

Brownies against a brownnoser! Those are hopefully not you probably emanating from your sub-conscious which is plagued with generations brimmed with superiority complex. I would be a Dolit before I become a brainless Brahmin priest.

[FagunerAgun]

One World, this is a well articulated master-craft without the intensity of a veritable apprehension and benign half-wits, but further down, beyond someone’s sanguine comprehension – a potential and complex genetic down syndrome.

So the challenge is with the bouncing monkey in the piggy bag on ‘your’ back.

[Neel Here]

ah, the hyenas are out.
reminded of the old internet proverb about pigs and wrestling, didn't really expect it on BC. I'm off this thread.

[Habib]

Originally Posted by Peace
In my understanding, most of the allegations made against India in this article are true, more or less.
The article raises further concerns about the facts alleged, and the government should take some serious steps to eliminate/ reduce the hostility between both countries.

If the government is acting like a puppet and doing nothing for the interest of the country to address these issues, then the opposition party(s) has responsibility to introduce debate in the parliament, and to seek redress through international forum such as United Nations.

The ordinary people and independant organisations can also take steps to make petitions to seek redress and serve to national and international authorities.

Unfortunately Peace vai, both parties are someone's puppets.

[FagunerAgun]

The hyenas have come
The shepherd has run
To drink rum
And have fun.

[auntu]

Originally Posted by One World
2 things, it was not his article. And, why not!? India has nukes.

Still they have the highest number of poor in their country.