Bangladesh/Pakistan

ChrisM · #1 December 9, 2004, 08:07 AM

It's good to be back on here. You might remember that a while ago I said I was interested in writing something about Bangladesh cricket on the occasion of their visit to England next summer.

I've had a few ideas but in the meantime I was struck by something that astonished me. I was carrying a cricket DVD in the post office in Tower Hamlets the other day and a bloke in their started talking to me about cricket. I asked if he was a Bangladesh supporter and he said he was Bangladeshi but supported Pakistan.

I've no wish to rake over things in the past that have nothing to do with cricket, but this astonished me. British people are unable to play Germany at football (against whom the war was twice as long ago as Pakistan-Bangladesh) without mentioning Nazism etc. It makes me ashamed every time we play Germany. The contrast with this bloke in the Post Office couldn't be starker.

So is this man's attitude typical among Bangaldeshis? I know that the Sylhet people of East London are not typical of Bangladeshis elsewhere. And how does the press in Bangladesh see the Pakistan team? If you had our horrible papers, you'd probably see pictures of Inzamam and Shoaib dressed as soldiers. That's what our lot do with Germans.

deshpremi · #2 December 9, 2004, 09:03 AM

if BD were playing Pakistan and this man supported Pakistan, then he has no right to call himself a Bangladeshi, however, some people support the Pakistani cricket team due to them sharing the same religion,this generally seems to be the case amongst the older generation (ironically this generation remembers the war you are referring to, most)
personally, first and foremost, i support the the Bangladeshi team and after them, it is naturally England as this is the country of my residence, so
Pakistan does not and should not come into the equation.
however, your generalisation of Sylheti people in East London and your assumption this man was from Sylhet baffles me a little.
also i think you should do a little more research before making such sweeping statements.

oracle · #3 December 9, 2004, 09:11 AM

Good reply deshpremi.

Cricket46 · #4 December 9, 2004, 09:24 AM

Let me address the question in your last paragraph first. The answer simply is that this is not a typical attitude of a Bangladeshi.

Regarding the guy you met it would be nice to know the demographics. My gut feeling is that this person is over 50 or close to that. And also the fact that this person is living abroad may mean that this person cannot relate to Bangladesh cricket. His memory may be filled with Pakistan cricket. I am not defending him, but simply trying to understand this uncommon attitude. It would be interesting to know which team these people would support when Bangladesh play Pakistan.

The fact is that I have seen people - even living in Bangladesh - who follow (not necessarily support) Pakistan cricket more than they do Bangladesh cricket. And in almost all cases these people are 60 plus. They have memories of Hanif and Fazal and what not, and that just lingers on. I myself have seen Hanif playing in Dhaka when I was a little boy, but to me Bangladesh comes first - wherever I am and however bad our team plays. That may not be the case for some older people. I would be very surprised if some Bangladeshi 40 or younger supporting Pakistan before Bangladesh.

fab · #5 December 9, 2004, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by deshpremi
however, your generalisation of Sylheti people in East London and your assumption this man was from Sylhet baffles me a little.
also i think you should do a little more research before making such sweeping statements.

Why is it baffling? Majority of the Bangladeshis living in Tower Hamlets are from a Sylheti background. And he is right that these Sylhetis aren't representative of Bangladeshis as a whole. These people left BD 30 - 40 years ago and a lot of them think that BD is still like the 'good old Paki days'..

I have never met any Bangladeshi who would support PK or IN before BD though.

BTW is it true that in the late 70s/early 80s Imran Khan gave 'namashkar' to fans in Chittagong, or is that an urban legend?

Shish Ahmed · #6 December 9, 2004, 10:15 AM

Mr. Fab,

Your comments have no truth what so ever. Sylhetis are the most passionate about Bangladesh and what do you mean we do not represent Bangladesh as a whole???

oracle · #7 December 9, 2004, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Why is it baffling? Majority of the Bangladeshis living in Tower Hamlets are from a Sylheti background. And he is right that these Sylhetis aren't representative of Bangladeshis as a whole. These people left BD 30 - 40 years ago and a lot of them think that BD is still like the 'good old Paki days'

Fab, I think you need to do some research before saying that. Are you implying that the folks in tower hamlets are not patriotic as other bangladeshis? The last sentence sounded like that. If so, you are wrong and possibly because you have not interacted with them or seen how much they support Bangladesh in every way.

*reverse_swing* · #8 December 9, 2004, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SHISH AHMED
Mr. Fab,

Your comments have no truth what so ever. Sylhetis are the most passionate about Bangladesh and what do you mean we do not represent Bangladesh as a whole???

If u ask any Sylheties a question where r u from then the most common answer is "I'm from Sylhet". They will never say "I'm from Bangladesh".

AGC · #9 December 9, 2004, 10:32 AM

Well said Oracle. Although maybe unintentional and not as direct, the level of anti Sylheti comments is quite disturbing sometimes.
I am studying in the UK and the majority of my bangladeshi friends are of sylheti origin and they all support Bangladesh and most of them are very patriotic. Just because they are born and brought up in the UK or of sylheti origin, it doesn't mean they are unpatriotoic and don't support Bangladesh. From my experience, the people that recently came from Bangladesh (any region) tend to be different. They try very hard to lose their attachments to Bangladesh and think it is "uncool" to be patriotic. Yes, I am definitely generalising here but its just something I've seen here at the University of Manchester.

say · #10 December 9, 2004, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fab

Quote:

Originally posted by deshpremi
however, your generalisation of Sylheti people in East London and your assumption this man was from Sylhet baffles me a little.
also i think you should do a little more research before making such sweeping statements.

Why is it baffling? Majority of the Bangladeshis living in Tower Hamlets are from a Sylheti background. And he is right that these Sylhetis aren't representative of Bangladeshis as a whole. These people left BD 30 - 40 years ago and a lot of them think that BD is still like the 'good old Paki days'..

I have never met any Bangladeshi who would support PK or IN before BD though.

BTW is it true that in the late 70s/early 80s Imran Khan gave 'namashkar' to fans in Chittagong, or is that an urban legend?

fab, ekjon Shikkhito Lok hoye - eki kotha bolen ??

People in Tower Hamlets are as patriotic as any other place. If I'm not mistaken - they were the ones who raised most money for 1971 liberation war in support of the independence of Bangladesh.

say · #11 December 9, 2004, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SHISH AHMED
Mr. Fab,

Your comments have no truth what so ever. Sylhetis are the most passionate about Bangladesh and what do you mean we do not represent Bangladesh as a whole???

Mr. Fab,

Your comment is indicative of your ignorance about the Sylhetti People. You must not generalize a group of people before you have 'mixed' with them a lot.

Jaalo Jaalo ... Aagun Jaalo

ZunaidH · #12 December 9, 2004, 10:52 AM

I think ChrisM is making up stories to get us stirred up.

On Fab's urban legend: I don't think Imran would ever dare to do that. He was in BD to play cricket twice. Once before I was born, the second time it was in 1987-88 (Dec. - Jan.). The second time I was there and Imran did not say anything remotely close to "namashkar."

He is a very smart talker and was wanton with his approach to women... First hand experience for me. Nothing more to that.

say · #13 December 9, 2004, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fab

BTW is it true that in the late 70s/early 80s Imran Khan gave 'namashkar' to fans in Chittagong, or is that an urban legend?

Typical pakistani mentality... They think Bengalis are not 'real' Muslims -- they think Bengalis are lesser Muslims.

They don't understand Bengali Islam is different from Arab/Paki Islam due to the influence of Sufism and our way-of-life being very inclusive of all local religions and cultures. We should be proud of our heritage.

AGC · #14 December 9, 2004, 10:55 AM

Quote:

We should be proud of our heritage.

We ARE proud

ZunaidH · #15 December 9, 2004, 11:06 AM

We should watch out for people like ChrisM. I smell typical British mentality of divide and conquer.

*AsifTheManRahman* · #16 December 9, 2004, 11:10 AM

hi Chris

good to see someone sharing the same views as myself...

well, first of all, your last para...from previous posts, you must have already gotten your answer...so let's not waste time on that.

well, now let's move to something more personal...i was born almost 14 years after our independence, and never saw what my men had to go through during the war. However, the descriptions I have heard from seniors and the videos that I watched were enough for me. I understand what kind of a sacrifice my men had to make. Our women were raped, and our mothers lost the most precious things they had...we gave fresh blood to earn our independence...just to think that one of those people could have been a very close relative of mine...but i guess the fact that they were my own countrymen is also enough...

and not only that - when they realized we were going to kick their butts off our homeland they killed our intellectuals so that we can never stand up as a nation...they flung our kids into the air and made sure they landed on the pointed edges of their guns...

therefore it is my personal preference not to support pakistan...i also get pissed when a middle aged man supports pakistan over bangladesh - wtf that guy was there when all this happened! he saw it with his own bloody eyes...

having said that, i don't want to give you the impression that i am allergic to pakistanis...i do have pakistani friends...both here in canada and back in bangladesh...i do mix with and talk to pakistanis...i dont curl up my nose when i see one...

but in general, i distaste pakistan just like the British distaste Germany.

i'm sorry to say this, but as i said, this is all just personal.

ChrisM · #17 December 9, 2004, 11:11 AM

ghor_jamai,

I am not making up stories to get you stirred. I made it clear in my first post that I appreciated the sensitivity of this subject. My point's just to contrast what British people are like with everyone they've ever had a war with- which is all of Europe except Portugal and Scandinavia, for a start. My comparison was entirely to Bangladesh's favour in all of this. Read some of the horrible stuff our press write about Argentina as well.

I spoke to the bloke again today- he's about 30 by the way. I did assume he's of Sylhyet origin with no other evidence than the law of averages and that his family seem to own the post office which suggests they're well established rather than recent arrivals. I'm happy to leave Sylhet out of the discussion.

Let's rephrase the question as "is he different because he lives in Britain". Maybe there's a kind of Pan-Asian or sympathy going on, born of having had such a hard time here? Pakistan v India in the 1999 World Cup was predicted by the press to be a bloodbath, but it was completely the opposite. I wondered whether this might be part of it.

And I am sure that he would support Bangladesh head to head v Pakistan.

*AsifTheManRahman* · #18 December 9, 2004, 11:13 AM

i know politics and sports should never be merged together, but then why the hell was South Africa banned from international cricket for so many years?

i know politics and sports should not be merged, but when your women are raped, your men tortured and your children killed brutally, i have nothing to say...i'm sorry, it just doesn't feel right to me....

ChrisM · #19 December 9, 2004, 11:18 AM

Divide and conquer- I've never been accused of that before. That's entirely the opposite of what I believe in. Unfortunately, it is often a part of sport. George Orwell (who'd seen divide and conquer at first hand in Burma) said that the best way to make two countries hate each other was to make them play each other at sport.

And Asif, I don't approve of treating Germans this way in the press. I approve of the man in the post office.

say · #20 December 9, 2004, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AsifTheManRahman
i know politics and sports should never be merged together, but then why the hell was South Africa banned from international cricket for so many years?

i know politics and sports should not be merged, but when your women are raped, your men tortured and your children killed brutally, i have nothing to say...i'm sorry, it just doesn't feel right to me....

well said

ZunaidH · #21 December 9, 2004, 11:25 AM

Ok ChrisM. I believe what you say. Although the story is very unusual, I believe. The part that bothered me was when tow groups immediately started going at each other making the Sylheti origin the key factor. To me, this was disturbing.

I don't see the point of taking sport as a vent for politics. You may have a genuine interest and positive objective. Unfortunatley, the issue was turning toward a bitter argument. Truce then!

fwullah · #22 December 9, 2004, 11:28 AM

Quote:

due to them sharing the same religion

I haven't read all the posts above, but deshpremi's first reply-post (I'm referring to the above quote), caught my attention.

I think that it is a mis-guided opinion that Bangladeshis support Pakistan because of the religion.

If that was the case, then would my brother be called a non-muslim (as I saw him supporting India long before)? Anyway, the point that I'm trying to make is that religion is not the reason for supporting Pakistan.

You see, Bangladesh got the test status only during 2000, but Bangladeshis have been watching cricket since, I don't know, from forever? And they (I'm referring to they, because I was too young to be supporting anybody at the time, other than Bangladesh, or better yet, I wasn't even born!) have been supporting teams since forever.

It is only a recent phenomenon that Bangladesh as a cricketing country is slowly entering the competitive world of cricket and although all Bangladeshis would support Bangladesh no matter what, so a second team would also be in the hearts of most Bangladeshis.

P.S. My 2nd team? Sri Lanka.

During the final of 1992 world cup, I was one of the few unfortunate Bangladeshis to be supporting England, and I remember I asked a cousin of mine, who is only a couple of years older than me, as to why she's supporting Pakistan when I was reminding her of the 1971 liberation war, and she answered to me with the following few points:

1. They're Asians, and the opponent England are not.

2. They're unpredictable - as she likes this unpredictability, so she's supporting Pakistan

Another thing, it is a general opinion (could be true) that most girls support Pakistan (irrespective of their age probably) because of their looks and for no apparent cricketing reasons (they fall under the category of 'doesn't watch cricket'). I always fail to realize why this happens as I think that by looks, New Zealand team is the best-physical appearing team at all times, and yet, New Zealand team doesn't have any support in Bangladesh, and certainly not among the girls.

Edited on, December 9, 2004, 4:46 PM GMT, by fwullah.
Reason: Additions...

Edited on, December 9, 2004, 5:01 PM GMT, by fwullah.
Reason: More Additions

ChrisM · #23 December 9, 2004, 11:29 AM

Absolutely! Truce agreed!

ZunaidH · #24 December 9, 2004, 11:33 AM

fwullah;

I have no second team. I watch BD and only BD. I'll only spend time or money watching BD playing. The rest I watch only if provided free; or I am really bored; or trying to compare how much BD needs to improve.

*AsifTheManRahman* · #25 December 9, 2004, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisM
Divide and conquer- I've never been accused of that before. That's entirely the opposite of what I believe in. Unfortunately, it is often a part of sport. George Orwell (who'd seen divide and conquer at first hand in Burma) said that the best way to make two countries hate each other was to make them play each other at sport.

And Asif, I don't approve of treating Germans this way in the press. I approve of the man in the post office.