Arranged Marriage / Love Marriage / Dowry (Vladmamu)

[lima]

Ok, this is Vladmamu. She changed the password on me, lol, so I punched in her username and asked the forgot password option to send a new password, and than I check her email, and here I am!!!

Boy she's gonna be mad tomorrow. I mean, I asked to her months ago to help me kick my addiction, but I think I've taken it to a new level.

I suspect when she checks her email tomorrow, she'll change the password on this too, and that will be the end of Banglacricket for me. Than I can get re-addicted to my studies again.

Anyway I had many debates about Love versus Arranged Marriages on this forum with AL, and others.

I wrote a 15 page paper with references talking about the dowry system and the marriages in the sub continent. I talk about the marriage systems, religious systems, and the benefits of divorce to a society. I bring it all together, and tie it with globalization and a nice prediciton of the future.

Because I was having many debates about this with my South Asian friends here, I wondered what you guys think? Have I proved my point sufficiently? Maybe I haven't.

Either way, i intended to post this before I retired from BC for good.

So this maybe be a final goodbye since she will probably change the password, after she sees this.

(I'm sorry baby, I just wanted to get feedback on this paper - last thing / last thing. Sorry. Wanna watch a movie? massage? Maybe we could buy those shoes you were talking about. (gulp - sorry)

__________________________________________________ _________________

There are many problems with the dowry system in India. It leads to infanticide, unequal male female birth ratios, domestic violence and subjugation of women. There are many causes behind these tragedies which stem from the dowry system, however, despite what appears to be an increasing problem with the dowry system in recent history, upon closer examination it appears that it has been latently reforming. The Dowry system in India is a phenomena which has existed in India for thousands of years, however, the use of dowry has recently changed because of industrialization and influence from the Western countries.
Missing the industrial boom of Western countries, South Asian countries are now pushed into post industrial societies with modern city industrialization and old cultural village habits. However, even before the Industrialization period, it was a system which the Hindus used mainly in the upper caste to get payment for an incoming wife . Even before the upper caste Hindus used the dowry system, it was a system used only by Royalty. The wife of upper-caste families, usually the Brahmins, did not work, so therefore, she did not contribute to her new husband’s family’s income.
It was a source of pride and a show of wealth to be able to have the Brahmin wife stay at home and not work. That is why the wife of an upper caste Brahmin family was indebted to her husband’s new family via a dowry, which consisted of gifts of animals, property and gold. This dowry would serve to make up for the fact that this high Brahmin caste wife would not be working. Currently, however, money is increasingly associated with dowry, rather than just gifts of animals, property and gold.
The problem is that a new phenomenon has occurred recently, in the last one hundred years. The lower castes are starting to accumulate much more wealth in India. However, since 1991 when the economy was freed up by the Indian government, Western goods flowed at an astonishing rate into India. This coincides with dowry violence. The Ministry of Home Affairs, Government of India shows an increase of 71.5 percent in cases of torture and dowry deaths from 1991 to 1995. Than in between 1997-1999 it increased further by 24.43%. The prevalence of television and advertisements was surely enticing Indians to want many more of these new goods that in some cases seemed attainable only via dowry or it was easier than working for it. One way to increase the economic circumstances that would facilitated the possession of these new goods was to marry a wife and collect her dowry. Many males might have married into certain families for only the reason of the dowry. Yet many daughter’s families may have made promises they are not able to keep, exaggerating the amount of dowry they could offer.
Historically, the lower castes male’s family did not receive a dowry at all when one of their males married a wife . On the contrary, the opposite happened, and a wife had to be purchased because in the lower castes the wife paid for herself via working, and often she was a welcomed source of labour that helped the family. In other words, a wife was valued for her work, and was to be purchased, or what we call a bride-price, rather than a bride dowry.
However, the higher caste practice has started to be followed by all the castes since independence. This is because the lower castes would like to imitate the higher castes. When the dowry phenomena was practiced only by the higher castes it did not have widespread consequences for an entire nation. The dowry system even seems logical when comparing the subcontinental histories world wide. Traditionally, wealthy educated parents wanted their kids to also marry into wealthy educated families and this phenomena existed world wide. One way to keep the poor separate from the rich would be the concept of dowry, since the poor peasants of India in the lower castes traditionally never could hope to marry off their daughters high enough, although it was done in rare circumstances.
Another problem with the dowry was infanticide. The first reports of infanticide came from the East India Company officials whom were living in northwest and north India. These reports came through in the late eighteenth century. The East India Company noted that it was surprised that the infanticide was practiced not by the poor but by the rich. The groups that were recorded on by the East India Company were the Rajputs or warrior castes, Jats, the dominant peasant castes of North India, and by the Sikhs in the Punjab.
Family pride is associated as the reasons for paying very high dowry. The Warrior castes were said to have “insane pride.” The pride is what is associated with paying outrageously high dowries. Further, it was not for the benefit of the women, but to maintain the social standing of the family. In the highest castes of these families daughters could not marry any higher. Therefore, to avoid the shame and embarrassment of having an unmarried post pubescent women, the family would kill her when she was born. In an 1872 census it was revealed that in the Western United Provinces one quarter of the population killed halve their female offspring. Some historians say this estimate is too high. It is not surprising that there was no evidence of male infanticide.
How did the dowry tradition start? How is it that women were treated so horrendously? I propose that it is because of the many armies that have come through the Subcontinent over the centuries. Traditionally, armies do not have females with them. Sometimes marching armies are on the road for years. It is a historical fact that many conquerors did come through the regions for hundreds and thousands of years. Based on that fact, I would posit that many soldiers were too sick or tired to go back. Perhaps they did not want to go back home, and liked the surroundings. I posit they took on forced wives in many cases, and hence, a system developed, like the dowry, whereby they were kept down at the servitude of men.
This theory occurred to me when I learned recently that Western nurses in Pakistan were attempted by the local tribesman to be taken as forced wives this year according to a story ran by CNN and other news organizations last week. Further, in the Old Testament, several passages commanded certain religious captors of the land, whom killed the infidels, to take their property and their land and to marry their women. God said it was there right as a particular religious sect, or God’s people. So the concept of taking on forced wives dates back thousands of years. It makes sense than, that in areas which were exposed to large migrations of people, soldiers, and armies, that this may have had an overall effect on the way women were treated in the Subcontinent.
It is hard to imagine with western modern eyes, however, these woman / children had little choice. After they were impregnated they were at the complete mercy of their captors. Northern Europe may not have had that many invasions in comparison, and Britain was an Island all to itself. Therefore, in the Subcontinent, such protection of prized women that were captured, or protection of women for soldiers was necessary in that time. In fact, if one could see it through the eyes of a soldier at that time, through their eyes, one could understand the logic behind these ancient traditions.
The problem of the dowry in recent history is that it has a disrespectful connotation towards women because they are essentially purchased and sold as if they were a commodity. And in an expanding market economy, especially in the exponentially growing economy of India where dowry is the biggest problem, the idea of paying for a wife makes her synonymous to any another commodity. Often, the husband’s family negotiates the terms of the dowry they would like to receive. However, the terms of the dowry that are negotiated are often increased after the marriage, or the dowry that was negotiated was not received in full as promised by the wife’s family. The husband’s family therefore start to harass the new wife to go to her parents and raise more money. Sometimes this harassment ends up in the form of verbal abuse, which in some cases leads to physical abuse and death, or suicide. Many of the accidents are made to look like cooking accidents.
Some of the blame can be put to the religiosity of the subcontinent. In the Hindu culture, a patriarchal system creates a situation of no power or control for women. Manu, the Hindu lawgiver, said that education for women should be discontinued. His laws stated that a wife should respect her husband as if he were a God, and serve him faithfully regardless of his merit. Manu dictated that women will stay in their homes and not enter any kind of public life or politics. All these laws and many more made women weaker and subservient.
A women is not valued according to Hinduism. She is not allowed to divorce her husband, and after the husband dies, the practice of suttee, where the women kills herself by jumping on her husband’s funeral pyre, is something that is part of the culture, including the dowry in the Upper castes. Hindu women have no say over anything, and must respect their husbands and their families, regardless of how they are treated. . Buddhism had an influence in the Indian Subcontinent also until the birth of Christ. According to Buddhist’s beliefs women were thought to be unscrupulous and they seduced and exploited men. These women hindered men from rising above worldly things. Than, Buddhism largely disappeared from the Indian Subcontinent around the birth of Christ. It moved to China, Korea and Japan in 400A.D., where it continued in different, modified ways. It is interesting that Buddhism too was used for similar purposes as Hinduism, in the same region.
Now in Islam on the other hand, in the subcontinent, women are allowed to divorce, educate themselves and be an equal partner to men. However, over time, after Islam came to India in the 12th century, because it teaches respect for other religions, it adopted many of the Hindu practices, which really have nothing to do with the religion, such as women re-marrying and being educated, which is allowed in Islam.
Christianity also took on these Hindu traditions. Christianity is said to have come to regions of India hundreds of years ago also. The priests seemed to overlook these practices. Either way, as mentioned earlier, the many expeditions into the subcontinent by different races has certainly not helped in the protection of women and their rights.
The problem since 1947, when India gained independence, is that India has started a slow climb towards Industrialization, which has really sped up to the point of a reachable goal of having the equivalent GDP of the United States. Indeed, India GDP is predicted to surpass the United States by 2020. The chief problem with industrialization is that the practice of the dowry has gotten out of control with every family trying to out compete each other. One of the reasons this has happened is because consumerism has increased the number of goods per family. Many villagers now posses televisions, fridges and all sorts of goods they did not have before. The boys whom are starting a new life want to have such possessions for themselves. They see they may have to wait for years for such goods, however, if they marry a women and negotiate the proper dowry, they can increase their status and success by acquiring a television, fridge or even money, almost over night.
What this essentially means is that families with girls are being bankrupted by extortional demands of dowry, and the families with boys are benefiting and gaining a higher economic status immediately by having a boy. Many families, therefore, see that having a boy will enable them to increase their economic status rapidly. However, if they marry off their son, and they do not get the dowry desired, or they get greedy and want more, they will abuse the wife until out of desperation, many parents will give in to save the girl and provide more dowry .
There were not many ways for a female to avoid the dowry situation. In a good scenario, the families all got along with each other and so did the wife and husband whom were married. Each traded the appropriate dowry and everyone was happy. However, increasingly the dowry system is not working. Women’s parents are bankrupted, or do not even have enough to pay for the entire dowry that was promised. Or the women’s husband simply wants more than the negotiated price. If the parents do not come through, the daughter will be treated badly, taunted by the husband’s family and sometimes even burned to death in an accidental cooking fire in India, or disfigured by acid in Bangladesh or Pakistan, or killed by it. Sometimes the wife will not or can not take the taunting living with her husband’s family anymore, and she can not go back to her family, so she will commit suicide to get away from the bad situation. It is a rare case where the wife’s family will take her back.
The problem is that many families will abort a baby girl, perhaps kill the baby girl as an infant after birth by infanticide, just so that they have the opportunity to try again for a boy and increase the wealth of their entire family. Of course, as mentioned earlier, this is no longer just maintained among the upper castes, but all castes. Therefore, this has resulted in many infanticides and many abortions of girls. According to the 2001 Census, India now has 107 males born for every 100 females and this, in a country of one billion, obviously translates to tens of millions of boys not having the opportunity to have any wives. Open homosexuality or homosexual marriage in this very conservative and religious region is not an option, and neither is polyandry, the two possible solutions at having a family for many men. A family has a domesticating effect on men and has traditionally been accepted as important in all societies.
What is an interesting phenomena is that education, and particularly Western education is supposed to enlighten children and the youth about the negative consequences of dowry, and the infanticide and birth imbalance it causes, including the lowering status of women in general by treating them as commodities. However, young people of the subcontinent like the dowry system. It is liked even more by the young educated elite than by the general population . Perhaps we could posit that this is because a young couple that is starting out will get many gifts and a lot of money. From the boy’s perspective, it will be a huge boost to the young couple’s start. From the girl’s perspective, she also will gain by getting lots of money from her parents.
However, if the trend of an ever increasing dowry continues among all classes, as the study of recent history shows us, especially with less birth per family than was common twenty years ago, and with the technology to decide what sex the fetus is, this difference in the sex ratio of more males to females could only continue to widen.
This is in direct contradiction to what one would expect to happen in an increasingly industrialized, educated society if one were to look at the West’s history as an indication of what is to come. Of course that may be because we are once again viewing this history and culture from a European or Western perspective, and using the measuring yardstick of what Industrialization was like in Europe, where it occurred first, and in a longer time span, with less interference from outside invaders, than is happening in India. The end result of the educated elite maintaining the dowry could be dangerous. There were millions of young males meandering through the streets and the countryside, or through life, without the domesticating effect of having a wife and offspring. Further, with little opportunity to date, because of the tolerance by the majority of the caste and sub-caste system and with no sexual outlet for the males and underdeveloped police and court systems, the increase of felonies such as rape rising could be attributed to this. There is a good possibility these problems and many more all are related to the history of the dowry system.
However, one could posit that the young, single boys not married off will contribute harder to an education for themselves, and turn into workaholics, due to not having families. If one looks at the history of Western countries, with the introduction of birth control, and divorce, and longer waiting periods before marriage and children, there is a correlation, not causation, between that and the level of education. The problem is that most of the young men not married will be the lower castes and lower status economically, and so there is less chance of education delaying the time for family by many years or indefinitely, which would contribute to the stabilizing of the statistical imbalance of boys out numbering the girls in the Subcontinent. Historically, acts of terrorism and subversive acts to oust the government have come from dissatisfied young males. This is evident in the Subcontinent in its recent history and in the not so recent history, back to the 1800’s. Disaffected youth all over the world, have brought down many governments. The various Indian governments have tried to curb this phenomena through legislation and enforcement, but with little success.
One way this imbalance could be rectified is if the idea of divorce was allowed and spread, and made acceptable in Indian societies, whereby, a wife could remarry again, and another man could have an opportunity at having a family. The idea of divorce has proved to be very successful for social harmony in Western countries, and beneficial to women in abuse cases. If that were the case, then certainly unhappy wives would gain some power, as they would now have the option of moving on to other men.
Our professor, Dr. Jake Newton, at Kwantlen University posits that the direction for dowry for brides can only go two ways, where the women of India will become empowered, or they will lose even more status, as more money for more dowries is demanded. However, I disagree, respectfully, that this would happen. From my own personal experience, by watching many Bollywood movies that are coming out (1000 strong per year, even more than Hollywood) and the Bollywood music videos, they are becoming increasingly Westernized, and Indian women are dressed in Western clothing and involve themselves in dating, and pretty much in the movies the Indians are involved in many western activities in general. Women in India in the capital cities at the American call centers, watch soap operas to gain a better accent. All these Westernization influences, including the hundreds of women’s right’s groups and demonstrations, are going to serve to liberate women of India, which will eventually serve to restore the imbalance caused by the dowry system.
Women should become valuable commodities, but in a more respectful way, as the dating culture spreads, and the man with the most qualities a women desires will win her out. This new dating culture will result in a rebalancing act. Based on what we know about the history of Western dating culture, we can apply some of our history to the unfolding of India’s history. Although there was no dowry in the Czech Republic for instance, it was common for lovers to be prevented from marrying. Like my own grandfather, who came from a family of 11 children, 5 of whom died before they were 12. He fell in love, but his families did not approve. He was to marry into a wealthier family. He was a smart man in school and studied math and accounting. His wife’s grocery stores needed a good manager. It was a good match, and neither the wife nor the husband had much say in the matter. So in some ways, it was similar to a dowry in the sense that it was arranged, and property was to be shared and transferred. The difference between Czech Republic in the early 20th century and India today is that the dowry system seems more formalized, and it discriminates against women. Whereas in Czech Republic it was my grandfather, a male, that married into a rich family, and received monetary and status benefits. Therefore, if the old Czech system broke down and a new dating one prevailed, this too should happen in India, even though India has that extra layer of discriminating against women, which can be attributed to the many invaders as mentioned earlier.
Unfortunately, there are over a billion people in India, with many provinces and great diversity between urbanization, industrialization, and communication, and religion, and cultural practices. Therefore, because of this variability, and due to the fact that seventy percent of India’s people still live in rural villages, where none of the mentioned heretofore advances have happened yet, the progress has been slowed in those areas. What is occurring is that the process is fixing itself in the cities, however, in the villages it will continue, where the unusual disproportion of men to women will still climb further.
Recently, single men with no wives have gone to cities to look for jobs and wives, and have become westernized in the process. They brought back their stories of what it is like in the cities, with their visits, enticing more young people to go to the city, and hence, industrialization will continue destroying this practice of the dowry. This is evident by many new technologies in villages, and ever increasing amount of villagers leaving for the cities. This is similar to the histories of other countries because the spread of industrialization was also occurring this way in first world countries, whereby, the sons and daughters left the villages for work and found it in the cities and old family traditions and allegiances were broken. However, there will be villages in rural India which may not get electricity and television and condoms-all major contributors to changing a culture-for 50 years, and essentially will continue to live the way they have for 1000s of years, unaffected by the rest of the country. Nevertheless, the majority of India should be Westernized and Industrialized and rid of the dowry by the end of this century if current trends continue.
The dowry that the kids are receiving from their parents that are well-off and educated is nice to get, however, the parents will be city dwellers, whom will both be working. Thirty percent of women are already in workforce in India and hence, divorce rates are going up as there is no time for extended families which put pressure on couples to maintain marriages at all costs. Eventually, this practice will dissipate as parents will not want to waste their money, especially when they don’t have a pick of the partner anymore.
Most marriages are already not fully arranged, whereby the kids meet each other first, and push the parents to pretend “arrange marry” them. It is difficult to guesstimate the percentages because it is a private affair, however, common consensus among Indians is that an arranged marriage whereby the partners never met each other is now a rare occurrence and many Indians admit to finding their own partners and than seeking approval from their parents, after the fact. This is especially true in the cities. A look at any Indian dating ads will show how important the caste system is, perhaps not so much to the young potential marriage couples, but more so to the parents, hence, today’s generation of Indians limit themselves to the correct caste, subcaste or religion, for the benefit of the family, but still find their own partners within that realm and domain.
To the historian it may appear that the majority of even the educated classes are engaging in the dowry system and the dowry problems are getting worse every year. However, if the arranged marriages are not really arranged anymore, and basically the partners are choosing their own spouses, just restricting it to their own caste or religion, than it is not an arranged marriage anymore in any sense of the word. It is an answer and a compromise to the ever changing world of globalization and influence from other parts of the world that historically did not exist on such a mass scale. The parent’s compromise by letting their offspring choose a partner, however, within the realms of the caste, sub caste and/or religion. It is difficult to say whether than, the dowry system or the caste system will continue to play a role in the next generation of kids. Even remote villages are now getting television sets and are being exposed to the concepts of love and dating.
In sum, the dowry system of India has been an influential and somewhat successful system by the mere fact that is has been maintained for thousands of years. The causes behind why the dowry system began and was maintained are many. There are many negative consequences such as infanticide, overpopulation, uneven population based on gender, and violence towards women in general. However, as many countries have demonstrated in developed countries, the changes from one generation to the next can be enormous. Although the dowries are on an increase among the young, whom are cleverly using them to increase their wealth from their parents, the younger city dweller generation is different. My prediction is that they will not part with their money so easily, when their children grow up. Most arranged marriages are a façade, since the parents are only given a look of control by maintaining the marriages are arranged. This clever youth is playing all sides to get the best deal for themselves. Based on that assumption, I posit dowry payments will decrease rather than increase in the next generation of Indians whom grew up in the cities, or with television sets.










BIBLIOGRAPHY
Caldwell, Jon C.; Caldwell, Bruce K. “Family Size Control by Infanticide in the
Great Agrarian Societies of Asia.” Journal of Comparative Family Studies: Vol. 36. No 2. (Spring 2005).
Chacko, Elizabeth. “Marriage, development, and the status of women in Kerala, India.”
Gender and Development: Vol. 11. No 2. (July 2003).
Niaz, U. “Violence against women in South Asian countries.” Arch Womens Ment
Health: Vol. 6. (2003).
Samuel, Edith. “Dowry and Dowry Harassment in India: An Assessment Based on
Modified Capitalist Patriarchy.” African and Asian Studies: Vol. 1. No 3. (2002).
Srinivasan, Padma.: Lee R. Gary. “The Dowry System in Northern India: Women’s
Attitudes and Social Change.” Journal of Marriage and Family: Vol 66.
(December 2004).

[Rabz]

(I'm sorry baby, I just wanted to get feedback on this paper - last thing / last thing. Sorry. Wanna watch a movie? massage? Maybe we could buy those shoes you were talking about. (gulp - sorry)


oh...mate..plz...
with all due respect..i reckon something should be kept secret behind the close doors about what happens between mr n mrs...

btw..i saw the length of ur post...lost the courage to read it..
guess i wud need 5 Red Bulls even before i start..

pls tell me u did a cut copy paste....
pls tell me u didnt type it all again.....

good luck with mami's reaction when she finds out...

cheers !!

[zakirc]

Salam Mami .... shomoi thakte ei pagol ke shamlan .... Jei Research Paper dise oita dekhei amar matha bhob bhon korche ..

[Hatebreed]

VladMamu, take my good advice and stop coming to this site until your exams are finished.. To be frank, it's a time when a lot of people are having exams including myself so right now we only care to discuss cricket..

Take care and good luck

[Mon]

Valdmamu:
You should try to mention this to our bengali apu. See it's something reallly funny and she will also think you have a good sense of humour.
See how your user name is Valdmamu right..and now take the "d" out and read your username to your wife

[Tigers_eye]

Vlad bro,
You did it this time. She'll be furious. She is only trying to help you. no need to get feedback on the paper from us. The Instructor gets paid for that. This is an addiction. You will lose the internet connection for sure now. That would eliminate any other bright ideas you may have of creating new User IDs.

[pagol-chagol]

We'll miss you Vladmamu.

[babubangla]

Is this the longest message posted ever in this forum?
Excluding the Bibliography section, the message itself had 4683 Words, 22737 characters (without spaces). Is this a new record?

[al Furqaan]

no, vlad has had longer posts i do believe...

[lima]

haha, Yes Al, you are right. Remeber the one on Religion versus Evolution? That one took me all day. Wow, I really need to be cut off. She needs to change the passwork on this account.

Hey, go see my post on the Londoni Controversi, where I responded to the post about the Daily Star's crack down on forced marriages, and read this paper I wrote, really, read it, I tried really hard to shed some light on some things.

Vladimir.