Bangladeshi Match Winner Player(s) - myth or reality?

[yaseer]

Originally Posted by Fazal

yes they can do the moral boosting even that player doesn;t get the MOM. If it can be done by any hard working players also, and the contribution doesn;t need to be batting or bowling, it can be a particular catch, or effort in fielding also, it can be a talent wise handicapped player giving his 110%, or a genuine bowler scoring signgke digit but hold the other end as night watchman batsman and help the team to recover its batting collapse.

No, that would be a supporting act of being a night watchman and recover the collapse.

Do, you really think bowler like Udana, Kulasekara can win or has the potential of winning matches for Srilanka with a single spell? But yes Malinga can with a single spell. Thats why Malinga is a match winner not Kulasekara even though Kulasekara gives 110% effort.

[Tigers_eye]

Match winner, lol. Let us have session winners first. 1st session'a almost all out hoiye jai abar Match jitbay. gasey kathal gofey tel. Rude awakening awaits.

53 tests 1 match wictory. Enam Jr. = Match winner. No one else. Now match contributors there are some...

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by yaseer
No, that would be a supporting act of being a night watchman and recover the collapse.

Well ... looks like we disagree. In my opinion any kind of fightback in case of team's need is a moral booster for the team and the fans. Whether it take us wining a game or preventing a loss.

Originally Posted by yaseer
Do, you really think bowler like Udana, Kulasekara can win or has the potential of winning matches for Srilanka with a single spell? But yes Malinga can with a single spell. Thats why Malinga is a match winner not Kulasekara even though Kulasekara gives 110% effort.

I think you are mixed uo two thinks. Yes this thread is about "match winner" However my commants was based on your commant about "Moral booster performance". A player can play a moral booster performance with being a "Match Winning" Performance. I hope it clarify the confusion.

[Tigers_eye]

By the way, if Draws are equal to BD wins then you have lot of explanation to do to Beamer. He and others (Strike Rate lovers in test) believe we can't draw a test.

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
gasey kathal gofey tel. Rude awakening awaits.

53 tests 1 match wictory. Enam Jr. = Match winner. No one else. Now match contributors there are some...

[yaseer]

Originally Posted by Fazal

Regarding "Match winner can't be defined only with Satistics", I agree its better than nothing. Its batter than fans claimimg he is our next tendulker and she is our next Imran Khan, and he is our ONLY match winner tag without any concrete evidence to back up.

you find this score after 15 overs in the 1st ODI against WI
Bangladesh - 120/1 (15)

Q. Which openers name will come to your mind as the chief contributer?
Ans: Tamim Iqbal (not Junaid or Imrul)

you left Bangladesh 20/2 after 12 overs and then found the score 300/5 after 50.

Q. Which batsman's name would come to your mind that scored?
Ans: Ashraful or Sakib (Not Riyad, Nayeem or Rakib)

You saw a green top and then left and after the innings found that BD had their oponent all-out 120.

Q. Which bowler's name will come to your mind?
Ans: Mashrafee (not Shahadat or Rubel)

That is how fans define match winners. Is this concept bhua? not really i think. Because the players' name came to our mind not only because we are fan of those players, but also they have shown more potential than others in the team to perform on that scale.

[Akib]

Heres Ash's stats in ODI wins (batting)

Match by match list

Bat1	Runs	BF	SR	4s	6s		Opposition	Ground	Start Date
51*	51	32	159.37	5	0		v Zimbabwe	Harare	10 Mar 2004	ODI # 2110
9	9	13	69.23	2	0		v Hong Kong	Colombo (SSC)	16 Jul 2004	ODI # 2143
28	28	41	68.29	1	2		v India	Dhaka	26 Dec 2004	ODI # 2201
11	11	12	91.66	0	1		v Zimbabwe	Chittagong (MAA)	26 Jan 2005	ODI # 2211
35	35	49	71.42	2	0		v Zimbabwe	Dhaka	29 Jan 2005	ODI # 2214
DNB	-	-	-	-	-		v Zimbabwe	Dhaka	31 Jan 2005	ODI # 2217
100	100	101	99.00	11	0		v Australia	Cardiff	18 Jun 2005	ODI # 2250
51	51	71	71.83	4	0		v Sri Lanka	Bogra	22 Feb 2006	ODI # 2336
18	18	24	75.00	2	0		v Kenya	Bogra	17 Mar 2006	ODI # 2350
DNB	-	-	-	-	-		v Kenya	Khulna	20 Mar 2006	ODI # 2353
3	3	7	42.85	0	0		v Kenya	Fatullah	23 Mar 2006	ODI # 2355
11	11	13	84.61	2	0		v Kenya	Fatullah	25 Mar 2006	ODI # 2356
4	4	24	16.66	0	0		v Zimbabwe	Harare	30 Jul 2006	ODI # 2393
DNB	-	-	-	-	-		v Zimbabwe	Harare	6 Aug 2006	ODI # 2398
67*	67	43	155.81	12	1		v Kenya	Nairobi (Gym)	12 Aug 2006	ODI # 2402
6	6	10	60.00	1	0		v Kenya	Nairobi (Gym)	13 Aug 2006	ODI # 2403
15	15	23	65.21	2	0		v Kenya	Nairobi (Gym)	15 Aug 2006	ODI # 2404
DNB	-	-	-	-	-		v Zimbabwe	Khulna	30 Nov 2006	ODI # 2453
4*	4	9	44.44	0	0		v Zimbabwe	Bogra	3 Dec 2006	ODI # 2457
36	36	50	72.00	3	0		v Zimbabwe	Bogra	5 Dec 2006	ODI # 2459
DNB	-	-	-	-	-		v Zimbabwe	Dhaka (SBNS)	8 Dec 2006	ODI # 2461
14	14	40	35.00	2	0		v Zimbabwe	Dhaka (SBNS)	9 Dec 2006	ODI # 2462
4*	4	7	57.14	1	0		v Scotland	Chittagong (CDS)	15 Dec 2006	ODI # 2465
38*	38	46	82.60	3	1		v Scotland	Dhaka (SBNS)	17 Dec 2006	ODI # 2467
22	22	26	84.61	1	0		v Zimbabwe	Harare	4 Feb 2007	ODI # 2505
3	3	5	60.00	0	0		v Zimbabwe	Harare	9 Feb 2007	ODI # 2516
DNB	-	-	-	-	-		v Bermuda	St John's	25 Feb 2007	ODI # 2528
60	60	45	133.33	7	1		v Canada	St John's	28 Feb 2007	ODI # 2530
8*	8	23	34.78	1	0		v India	Port of Spain	17 Mar 2007	ODI # 2538
29*	29	32	90.62	2	0		v Bermuda	Port of Spain	25 Mar 2007	ODI # 2554
87	87	83	104.81	12	0		v South Africa	Providence	7 Apr 2007	ODI # 2564
64*	64	90	71.11	8	0		v Ireland	Dhaka (SBNS)	18 Mar 2008	ODI # 2693
38	38	38	100.00	3	0		v Ireland	Dhaka (SBNS)	20 Mar 2008	ODI # 2694
22	22	36	61.11	2	0		v Ireland	Dhaka (SBNS)	22 Mar 2008	ODI # 2695
109	109	126	86.50	8	0		v United Arab Emirates	Lahore	24 Jun 2008	ODI # 2711
60*	60	56	107.14	5	1		v New Zealand	Dhaka (SBNS)	9 Oct 2008	ODI # 2763
26	26	41	63.41	1	0		v Sri Lanka	Dhaka (SBNS)	14 Jan 2009	ODI # 2793
5	5	13	38.46	1	0		v Zimbabwe	Dhaka (SBNS)	21 Jan 2009	ODI # 2799
3	3	31	9.67	0	0		v Zimbabwe	Dhaka (SBNS)	23 Jan 2009	ODI # 2801

[Akib]

28

28

41

68.29

1

2

v India

Dhaka

26 Dec 2004

ODI # 2201

100

100

101

99.00

11

0

v Australia

Cardiff

18 Jun 2005

ODI # 2250

51

51

71

71.83

4

0

v Sri Lanka

Bogra

22 Feb 2006

ODI # 2336

8*

8

23

34.78

1

0

v India

Port of Spain

17 Mar 2007

ODI # 2538

87

87

83

104.81

12

0

v South Africa

Providence

7 Apr 2007

ODI # 2564

60*	60	56	107.14	5	1		v New Zealand	Dhaka (SBNS)	9 Oct 2008	ODI # 2763
26	26	41	63.41	1	0		v Sri Lanka	Dhaka (SBNS)	14 Jan 2009	ODI # 2793

If you narrow it down to the main 8 countries, you see that out of 7 matches, he has 4 with a significant contribution. One of the matches, hes not out (came in lower down. And the remaining 2, he was 2nd or 3rd highest contributor.

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by yaseer
That is how fans define match winners. Is this concept bhua? not really i think. Because the players' name came to our mind not only because we are fan of those players, but also they have shown more potential than others in the team to perform on that scale.

When someone loves someone, sometimes they get blind. They don't see the obvious if it portrays negatively towards his/her loved one. This so true about passionate fans and their relationship with superstar players.

You cannot take passionate fans opinion in its face value. It needed to validated with some thing else like stat or expert opinion, etc. You just trust our passionate fans’ opinion, by we mush have a Tendulker, Afridi, and Pointing in our team by now. But we don’t. that where myth and reality comes from… that’s where stat and other expert opinion comes from.

[Akib]

Originally Posted by Fazal
When someone loves someone, sometimes they get blind. They don't see the obvious if it portrays negatively towards his/her loved one. This so true about passionate fans and their relationship with superstar players. fficeffice" />

You cannot take passionate fans opinion in its face value. It needed to validated with some thing else like stat or expert opinion, etc. You just trust our passionate fans’ opinion, by we mush have a Tendulker, Afridi, and Pointing in our team by now. But we don’t. that where myth and reality comes from… that’s where stat and other expert opinion comes from.

I dun't think many of us are comparing him to Tendulkar. Remember, a match winner does not have to be good. He just has to win matches. So he good be inconsistant, and have a low average, but if when he shows up, and we win, I'd call him a match-winner.

[Tigers_eye]

Originally Posted by yaseer
you find this score after 15 overs in the 1st ODI against WI
Bangladesh - 120/1 (15)

Q. Which openers name will come to your mind as the chief contributer?
Ans: Tamim Iqbal (not Junaid or Imrul)

you left Bangladesh 20/2 after 12 overs and then found the score 300/5 after 50.

Q. Which batsman's name would come to your mind that scored?
Ans: Ashraful or Sakib (Not Riyad, Nayeem or Rakib)

You saw a green top and then left and after the innings found that BD had their oponent all-out 120.

Q. Which bowler's name will come to your mind?
Ans: Mashrafee (not Shahadat or Rubel)

That is how fans define match winners. Is this concept bhua? not really i think. Because the players' name came to our mind not only because we are fan of those players, but also they have shown more potential than others in the team to perform on that scale.

All three scenarios never happened nor will it happen with this current bunch. You better wake up. Bringing in Mythical scenarios doesn't make your arguement any stronger.

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by Akib
Remember, a match winner does not have to be good. He just has to win matches. So he good be inconsistant, and have a low average, but if when he shows up, and we win, I'd call him a match-winner.

If someone wins matches or have a match winning performance, he get the MOM awarded by assigned experts, right? If someone doesn’t get the MOM, that means in that game someone player better than him to get that MOM.

Now if you start saying contributors, yes we all know that cricket is played by 11 people in each side. Nobody can win a game by himself without some sort of support from some of the team members.

[PoorFan]

Originally Posted by Fazal
So far we placed the TEST data and making our conclusion .

Based on your own criteria, we had one one win in TEST and the MOM ion that match was Enamul Jr. So I guess You would agree with me that We in TEST matches, we don't have any Match winner yet. If nay is front runner, its have to be Enamul Jr. not Ashraful, Mashrefee or even Shakib at this point.

Well to me, every single word on TEST is a waste, hence not even deserve any comment.

I haven't put forward detailed data of ODI yet and I didn't made any comment about who are our Mtach winners in ODI (if any) yet.

Is that suggest nobody should comment on ODI until you do?

So your comment "And Ash did contributed MOST in few of our winning matches ( ZIM, AUS, SA, WI ), unlike anyone rest yet to conted. So why its so hard to accept if anyone wish to call him a match winner for BD?" in this thread is premature in my opinion. Lets put the ODI data first and start analysing that and build our opinion.

May be in ODI, we may have one or multiple candidates, who knows? May be in ODI we will see Ash is the front runner may be someone esle. What's so rush, prematurely saying that Ash is the only match winner that we have?

You picked up MOM criteria knowing well you can make a case off it, which some [if not many] has not enough interest to accept as sole criteria. For example someone can claim our batting should be the criteria since bowling is somewhat per level. And obviously will try his level best to prove vice versa. And I am sure you too will do the same, the outcome of your analysis is somewhat written on the wall.

But hey, why not bring on your "Tholer Biral"! who knows "Ashrafool-er bhoot" might die here on this thread once for ever!! would be a no-one-ever-done achievement.

[Tigers_eye]

Originally Posted by Akib
I dun't think many of us are comparing him to Tendulkar. Remember, a match winner does not have to be good. He just has to win matches. So he good be inconsistant, and have a low average, but if when he shows up, and we win, I'd call him a match-winner.

Match winners don't have to be good? They can be inconsistant and have a low average of 23? Have you ever heard the phrase "jhorey bok moray ar fokir'er keramoti barey"? wow!!

I am learning new things in BC everyday.

How many match we won in test? Yet you call Ashraful a match winner? Did you know his contribution in the one match we won?

Amar test team'a inconsistant low average match winner (after playing so many tests who really DID NOT win any test matches) dorkar nai.

[yaseer]

Originally Posted by Fazal
When someone loves someone, sometimes they get blind. They don't see the obvious if it portrays negatively towards his/her loved one. This so true about passionate fans and their relationship with superstar players. fficeffice" />

You cannot take passionate fans opinion in its face value. It needed to validated with some thing else like stat or expert opinion, etc. You just trust our passionate fans’ opinion, by we mush have a Tendulker, Afridi, and Pointing in our team by now. But we don’t. that where myth and reality comes from… that’s where stat and other expert opinion comes from.

Yes, passionate fans sometimes over-rate players because of blind love.

But if you ask any cricket expert, "whom do you think got to score most if BD has to chase 300+?" answer would be Ashraful. That is why fans consider Ashraful match winner for Bangladesh. The beleive comes from the previous performance and from the talent the man possess. That is why ASH is the most frustrating story for Bangladesh.

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by PoorFan
Is that suggest nobody should comment on ODI until you do?

No body put the total data of ODI games and MOM yet. I plan to do it by this. If you already haves those and based on comment on that please feel free to share with us. I am not ready to comment on ODI PMOMR before I have the whole data in front of me. that’s why I meant by premature to discuss ODI MOM. haven’t seen the whole data of all our MOMs and Games we won.

I plan to do that this weekend and then I will express my opinion on that.

Originally Posted by PoorFan

You picked up MOM criteria knowing well you can make a case off it, which some [if not many] has not enough interest to accept as sole criteria. For example someone can claim our batting should be the criteria since bowling is somewhat per level. And obviously will try his level best to prove vice versa. And I am sure you too will do the same, the outcome of your analysis is somewhat written on the wall.

I guess you are over estimating my capabilities. I even don't know who are the front runner MOMs and PMOMR in ODI and I am will tro see how newer players are doing compared with Marshrfee and Ash.

Well interm of using MOMs for identifying "match Winners", I can also say that a fans of a particular player are the most vocal and trying their best to nullify the concept. They tend to say its not measurable only fans ( of a particular player I guess) can identify who is the match winner.

This MOM can not be the only way to judge a "Match Winner" but its a way ....... and its a much better measurable way than few are suggesting as a alternative way. Wait a minute, nobody even bothers to suggest an alternate measurable way except that it cannot be measurable...that’s make me think may be it may not be perfect ... but there is no better way to judge a match winner...

[Akib]

Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Match winners don't have to be good? They can be inconsistant and have a low average of 23? Have you ever heard the phrase "jhorey bok moray ar fokir'er keramoti barey"? wow!!

I am learning new things in BC everyday.

How many match we won in test? Yet you call Ashraful a match winner? Did you know his contribution in the one match we won?

Amar test team'a inconsistant low average match winner (after playing so many tests who really DID NOT win any test matches) dorkar nai.

I'm not taking about tests. If you read ANY of my posts, you would have seen that I said there is insufficient data on tests, as we have won only once. I am refering to our ODI wins, especially against the main countries. In those wins, he has played a big part in most of the matches. You have to admit, in matches we win, he shows up.

Records type all-round analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]

Match result won match

Ordered by default (ascending)

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St
unfiltered	2001-2009	139	2761	109	23.00	2	11	3/26	38.27	0	27	0	Profile
filtered	2004-2009	39	1041	109	43.37	2	2	2/9	8.50	0	9	0

This includes ALL opposition (not just main 8)


I do agree, he is horrific in tests. In matches won or drawn he has bad results. I could just stand there and do better.

Bat1	Bat2	Runs	BF	SR	4s	6s		Opposition	Ground	Start Date
0	0*	0	8	0.00	0	0		v Zimbabwe	Dhaka	8 Nov 2001	Test # 1566
1	-	1	34	2.94	0	0		v Zimbabwe	Bulawayo	26 Feb 2004	Test # 1684
81	1	82	227	36.12	9	0		v West Indies	Gros Islet	28 May 2004	Test # 1701
19	22	41	87	47.12	4	1		v Zimbabwe	Chittagong (MAA)	6 Jan 2005	Test # 1733
5	3	8	16	50.00	1	0		v Zimbabwe	Dhaka	14 Jan 2005	Test # 1735
5	DNB	5	20	25.00	0	0		v India	Chittagong (CDS)	18 May 2007	Test # 1832
0	-	0	2	0.00	0	0		v New Zealand	Dhaka (SBNS)	25 Oct 2008	Test # 1890

[yaseer]

Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
All three scenarios never happened nor will it happen with this current bunch. You better wake up. Bringing in Mythical scenarios doesn't make your arguement any stronger.

TE bhai, I am not saying its gonna happen.
My point was to differentiate the players those have something extra to offer.

Players like Ashraful, Sakib, Tamim always has extra to offer compare to Riyadh, Nayeem, Rakib, Mehrab.

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by yaseer
Players like Ashraful, Sakib, Tamim always has extra to offer compare to Riyadh, Nayeem, Rakib, Mehrab.

I am confused now.

How do we measure that "something to offer aspect" of some type of players. Gut feeling? Style? Talent that didn't translted into production yet?

We all complain that there is no accountability and Performance Matrix to measure and monitor and make everybody accountable.. from top toi bottom.

What makes me worried about these unmeasurable "some players have something to offer than other players" is we are saying one thing and suggesting completely other things and creating loopholes to bypass acountability aspect.

[cricket_dorshok]

Mamu, emnitei keptency haraiche, koidin por team theke bad porar voye ache, er moddhe keno apne tago mone dukkho den. ektuo doya maya nai??

[PoorFan]

Originally Posted by Fazal
This MOM can not be the only way to judge a "Match Winner" but its a way ....... and its a much better measurable way than few are suggesting as a alternative way. Wait a minute, nobody even bothers to suggest an alternate measurable way except that it cannot be measurable...that’s make me think may be it may not be perfect ... but there is no better way to judge a match winner...

Well may be you have decided not to look more obvious way. How about digging out those bulletins in CI or other match reports in and out Bangladesh [those 4 ODI match]. If you see Ash's especial / exceptional contributions in those report would you accept as a measure? Or if his teammates in BD team highly appreciate Ash's contribution would you ready to accept as legitimate measure? I guess not, because you need something else to prove a point nullifying other.

Perhaps your unique MOM measure for the term Match Winner need some backup / assist of Rajesh, the stat guru of CI.

[yaseer]

Originally Posted by Fazal
I am confused now.

How do we measure that "something to offer aspect" of some type of players. Gut feeling? Style? Talent that didn't translted into production yet?

Simple, those are better batsman who have something to offer extra aspect. ASH, Sakib are better than Nayeem, Riyadh....so they have something extra to offer. It's about cricketing ability.

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by yaseer
Simple, those are better batsman who have something to offer extra aspect. ASH, Sakib are better than Nayeem, Riyadh....so they have something extra to offer. It's about cricketing ability.

I guess you didn't get my point. How do you measure that those are better batsman who have something to offer extra aspect? And how you are already soo sure Nayeem and Riyadh doesn have it? And Ash and Skain has it? Unless its measureable and backed up with fact, it hard to take as a conclusion when its comming from a individual fan's perspective.

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by PoorFan
Well may be you have decided not to look more obvious way. How about digging out those bulletins in CI or other match reports in and out Bangladesh [those 4 ODI match]. If you see Ash's especial / exceptional contributions in those report would you accept as a measure? Or if his teammates in BD team highly appreciate Ash's contribution would you ready to accept as legitimate measure? I guess not, because you need something else to prove a point nullifying other.

Perhaps your unique MOM measure for the term Match Winner need some backup / assist of Rajesh, the stat guru of CI.

I suggest you to re-read your own comments. Why its have to be the universe needs to run around Ash? Arn't we forgeting for a moment that Ash is just one out of 11 players who plays for our beloved team? This thread is not about Ashraful, its about how we can measure "Match Winning Potential" amoung our players and really try to find out do we have any potential match winners? If yes who are those?

Digging out those bulletins is a good idea that requires lots of work. But why only Ash related reprots, why not for all of our players? See you are pretty much stuck with Ash mania and ignoring other players.You are accusing me to that I devised this PMOMR stuff to nail down Ash, but you yourself is ignore the rest of the teammates in your discussion as if they don't exists.

Teammates should support each other publicly and only disfunctional team say bad things about each other. I don't see what you point there in that aspect.

[Akib]

Originally Posted by Fazal
I suggest you to re-read your own comments. Why its have to be the universe needs to run around Ash? Arn't we forgeting for a moment that Ash is just one out of 11 players who plays for our beloved team? This thread is not about Ashraful, its about how we can measure "Match Winning Potential" amoung our players and really try to find out do we have any potential match winners? If yes who are those?

Digging out those bulletins is a good idea that requires lots of work. But why only Ash related reprots, why not for all of our players? See you are pretty much stuck with Ash mania and ignoring other players.You are accusing me to that I devised this PMOMR stuff to nail down Ash, but you yourself is ignore the rest of the teammates in your discussion as if they don't exists.

Teammates should support each other publicly and only disfunctional team say bad things about each other. I don't see what you point there in that aspect.

Well its not too hard to do, if you are talking about ODIs. I listed all our wins in a previous post. Just follow the match links. Also, reason we are all focusing on ash, is because traditionally the mantra is that he is our match winner. What we are debating is whether this is true or not.

as for the MOM criteria, I disagree with it. Personally I think many ppl contribute to a win. When I look at match winner, I look for someone who shows up, when the team wins (or other way around). Basically, when the team wins, and you are looking at scorecard, you see that this player's name pops up as doing something significant.